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The following is a discussion that occurred between this humble author and Mistress Isobel (reprinted with permission) regarding her following quote:
"So many women give up on risk-taking before they even start, because failure is more deeply disappointing for them than it is for men." - Mistress Isobel
Colin-G - Okay, you and I need to talk about this because I want to understand why people believe this.
Elsworthy - Oh, okay. When women take on something that is traditionally outside their experience (such as fighting), they often (the qualifier is important; it *is* a generalization, after all) prepare themselves in advance for failure, so that they will not be as devastated when (as they think it will) it happens. This little psychological trick is behind the low self-esteem of a lot of women rapier fighters I have dealt with. It's a defense mechanism. Everyone around them has taught them that there are certain things women don't do, such as get aggressive.
Colin-G - I think the "something that is traditionally outside their experience" is the key to me in the above statement. While I agree with that emphatically I don't see this as something that is unique to women. And since you did qualify with "often" I do agree that this trait is most often found in those socialized with the feminine gender characteristics. However...
Elsworthy - There is evidence for this; movies have only recently started portraying aggressive women as heroes, rather than bad women. In the '70s and '80s when a lot of these women were growing up, strong female characters invariably come to a bad end; Glenn Close in Fatal Attraction is a fine example (okay, she was a psycho, but she wasn't a meek little psycho, she was an independent woman who picked up a man, rather than waiting patiently at home like the wife character), as is Demi Moore in that movie she did with Michael Douglas - Harassment or something, it's called. In real life, too, celebrity women who are take charge, go for what they want, and aren't ashamed to admit it have more nasty stories written about them than women who conform to the "sweet helpless little girl" image people like. It's not until Milla Jojovich in Resident Evil and Lara Croft that women have really been allowed to KICK ASS!@! as the main characters of an action film. And even then, Angelina Jolie has had all kinds of crap written about her because she doesn't conform to the way people think she should behave. They gave her crap for ADOPTING a kid, for heaven's sake! Like she wasn't really a woman because she didn't use her own uterus! But I digress.
Colin-G - I'll jump in on the digression with my memories growing up with Linda Carter in Wonder Woman, Lindsay Wagner in Six-Million Dollar Women, and the ladies in Charlie's Angels. The only "bad girls" I remember growing up where those wearing the black hats on daytime Soap Operas (General Hospital and All My Children were my favorites). As to nasty stories, it comes with the territory of fame. Tim Robbins and Susan Sarandon are getting hammered for taking a political stand. Mel Gibson is being assaulted by the Anti-Defamation League over a movie he believes in that no one has even seen. Taking a strong stand that challenges "stereotypes" will always draw criticism. But think about the opposite dichotomy. No one thinks twice about the woman that is a stay-at-home mom (well, except for the radical feminists but that is another debate) but to date, being a stay-at-home dad has a stigmatism like nothing you would believe. It may be the case that the wife and mother has a far greater earning potential but being seen as the provider by those socialized with the masculine gender characteristics is so ingrained that to be otherwise is to consider one's life a failure.
Elsworthy - I agree with pretty much everything you've said, except that I would add Barbara Bain in Space 1999 to the list of cool women - but all of these women had male bosses who were *really* in charge. I never found Wonder Woman to be much of a role model, because she got trapped and was made helpless all the time (as I remembered it), and Charlie's Angels? Please. Guys may have thought they were cool, but I couldn't stand them - they were so *girly* (but then, as a child, I always wanted to be doing the things boys did - the girls' adventures were never as cool. I didn't want to *be* a boy - I just wanted their adventure opportunities). Personally, I look forward to the day when a female character in a mainstream movie is as complicated as Jack Nicholson in One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, and still be a hero. Angelina Jolie gets close, but we still have a way to go.
Where was I? Oh, yes - aggression. Because many women fighting in the SCA have a problem with aggression, they turn things that go wrong in on themselves. One of the things I really truly envy about men is the ability to say "It's okay that I sucked, I was just having a bad day"; they can compartmentalize their failure days and see them as part of a larger picture of progress. Women seem (in my experience - remember, I'm just talking about the fighters I've been in contact with) to take any bad day as confirmation that they didn't belong out there in the first place. Listen to women talk about their fighting experience - and Suzie doesn't count, because she's one of those rare women who has overcome this tendency in her fighting - and you will hear them talk about their fighting as if they were talking about a character flaw - "I suck, I can't do anything right", "Why did I think I could do this? I'm obviously not cut out for it", "Maybe I'm not meant to be a heavy /rapier fighter". Men generally do not do this. Women, when things are going well, do not do this, but neither will they take full credit for a good day. It is a rare woman you will hear say "I was great today! I was in the zone! I kicked butt!". Instead they will say "I was lucky", or "he must have been having a bad day".
Colin-G - Your choice of the word "compartmentalize" is a superb way of characterizing how a lot of man handle failure. The problem is that, unlike women who verbalize and express their frustration, men just eventually fill up all their compartments, climb into a tower and start shooting people at random. When men brag about their successes, they are opening up various compartments and letting some of the angst out. It might seem rude to say but lack of complaining from a woman prone to do such can be as loud or louder a scream of success than listening to Sir Aradd talk about himself.
I've attended the Dutch Elena "Lizard Brain" class and I agree with the theory as a general rule of thumb. As a guy fighter, if I understand that a lady fighter might or likely will be coming from this mindset, then I know that my training methods will need to take this into account. Trust me when I say that when I was a Drill Sergeant, the worst platoon you could end up with was a female platoon. Not because they could do it or it took longer for them to learn, they just required a training technique that wasn't taught at the Drill Sergeant Academy. (sidebar: besides, we were all terrified that we'd get called before then man and accused of some crime...his happens a lot, some deserved, much not.)
Elsworthy - Men internalize their successes; women externalize them. The opposite happens with failure. Now, of course, this is a gross generalization, but when dealing with a female fighter in a funk, it is important to encourage them to avoid self-flagellation.
Colin-G - As my paragraph above states, I agree but I would go one further. If they are in a funk, back them up out of the fight and let them talk about what is happening. Women are more analytical by nature and often times make greater leaps by talking thru the "problem" than working (i.e.. practicing) thru the it. While a guy is practicing, I can yell at him that he's doing it wrong and to tighten something up. With a lady, it is far better to pull her aside and ask her what was working and not working and what might she do to correct it.
Elsworthy - I wish it weren't so; but I know from painful experience that women beat themselves up over their failures, and deflect credit for their success. My personal theory is that women view competition as bad because of the idea that they are second-class citizens, and we were for a while. We're not as much now, but old habits die hard; everyone is supposed to pull for the team, and someone who pulls ahead is to be sabotaged and told to get back into her place, so most women will avoid even a whisper of self-pride for fear that other women will beat her down for daring to get above herself. It's a vicious thing, but anyone who's spent time in a girls' school will confirm that girls are ruthless in their blocking of anyone who wants more than "her fair share" - fair share defined as going for the things you want, and not worrying about making anyone else feel bad because they don't want to take the same risks.
Colin-G - Yes, I agree with all this. Women are harder and more judgmental to other women than men are. That being said, I don't see this as unique to the "gentler sex" (don't hit me). Think about the black community where you are an "Uncle Tom" if you do well in schools or are successful in business. Ever heard someone called a "brown nose" when they advance too fast within an organization? Enough the term "overachiever" has a negative connotation. How about the reverse of pulling someone back? How about shaming those fathers that wish to stay home with their children while the wife works because they aren't as career driven as the masses. (sidebar: this of course can be seen when "radical" feminist groups pick on stay-at-home moms as well).
Elsworthy - Stereotypes exist because there is a status quo that suits most people, even the ones that bitch about it - they're comfortable in their complaining. When anyone (male, female, black, white, blue, whatever) tries to do something that isn't in the standard way of things, other people will try to stop them because it disrupts the accepted social order. That antipathy is enough to make anyone doubt themselves, because they already have a lot of insecurity about what they're doing. One crab tries to escape from the bucket, all the other crabs will pull it back down. Women's reactions differ slightly from men's in this respect because they are taught not to be aggressive. You, as a parent, might not teach your theoretical daughter that, but there are plenty of people out there who would be happy (we must fight them. Heh.) to teach her how to be a "little lady", and attack her for wanting to be her own self. Take that onto the fighting field, and women have the double whammy of doing something not many women do (and I admit rapier is easier than heavy in that respect now, but it wasn't when I started), and going against what they've been taught about how "nice" women behave.
I think women have been taught to take failure as a sign of cosmic disapproval of their activities. It's insane, but women take a bad day REALLY personally. Your job, should you ever run into that, is to explain how men put that kind of bad day outside themselves, and use it as a springboard to future success, not as a sign they didn't belong out there in the first place.
Colin-G - See my above compartmentalizing comments. However, it IS a bit like filling a glass of water for men. Eventually, that glass can't hold any more and stuff just starts spilling everywhere. I think that is one of the reasons that men die earlier. They hold stress in far longer than is healthy. Women vent their pressure cooker far more often than men and to lesser degrees. The problem is that we, the guys, misunderstand that women aren't necessarily looking for us to fix it, they are just expressing their frustration. We then rush in like heroes to tell them what to do to solve the problem and thus make it worse. Gee, aren't we helpful?
Elsworthy - I heard a rumor that women fighting heavy in Ansteorra were told "cunts don't belong on the fighting field". By other women, no less (I hope it's not true). Female fighters are bucking the female ranking system by fighting, and other women react sometimes (less so now, I hope - certainly less so on the rapier field than when I started) like they did in the fifties to women who put their kids in daycare and went back to work - hostility because the fighter is getting something the other woman doesn't have, and many women don't know how to compete honestly for something, or admit they're jealous - they'd rather vilify the other person. I hate this, by the way - I'd much rather women just punched each other in the nose like men do. But I've been on the receiving end of it more than most women.
Colin-G - I understand everything you said above and being the smart enlightened guy I am, I'm only going to listen and sympathize...not give advice. Now back to the quote: "So many women give up on risk-taking before they even start, because failure is more deeply disappointing for them than it is for men."
I agree that a larger percentage of women give up on risk-taking before they start (or right after) in areas typically dominated by men and that this is a socialized trait. The problem I have is with the second part. Failure is failure. It may take guys a lot longer to reach the conclusion "I have failed" but it is no less devastating. If you only knew the number of times I've cried in my wife's arms because some gamble didn't pay off. It is true we "stay in the game" longer in stuff outside the home but I'm betting that women "stay in the game" a lot longer inside the home, even when it is far from healthy to do so. Women are not weak and they are far more capable of carrying some types of burdens than men are. My wife will take risks in areas I wouldn't dream of as they are in her comfort area and out of mine. As a silly example, I'm scared to death to buy anyone presents...she loves it. What's the big deal you say? Well, you're not a guy.
One final thing. Most men will hold onto a "tug-of-war" rope until they are pulled into the water. The reason is that it is socially unacceptable to give up...even in a lost cause. As I mentioned before, this can make the failure so complete that the only think a guy can think to do is to climb a tower and start shooting people. It is far better to fail small and fail often than it is to fill all your compartments and let the pressure cooker explode. (Did I get all of the analogies worked back into the concluding paragraph?)
Elsworthy - We are, in fact, arguing from almost the exact same point... funny, that. And agreeing with each other. I think we both feel the same way, but since we are opposite genders (and from different countries, and... no, wait, we're the same age), we express it differently. I should have originally said "women take failure as a sign of who they are as a person (and that failure means they're bad), not how they fought that day." But it didn't come to mind at the time - the statement was trying to show a friend that she wasn't unique in her feelings - all women feel that way about stuff that's hard sometimes. All men, too, but male coping methods for bad days aren't going to "click" with female fighters as easily.
This "women are gentler than men, so naturally behave better" crap? It is completely untrue. Just like your experiences with female platoons, Robert experienced working in the women's wing at the PG County Jail, and they are *nasty*. Women are every bit as rough, cruel, and aggressive as men can be at their worst, I don't care what they tell you about "sugar and spice". They just show that aggression in different ways.[1]
I want women fighters to realize that they are not bound by what they think people will think about them and their fighting - and they really fear not being taken seriously above all else ("So you want to be a knight, huh? Well, I think that's cute."). Having struggled with this a lot myself (I am not, and probably never will be, a tournament winner, but I can kick ass and take names with the best of them), I feel for lady fighters when they doubts their rightful place out there. And it is easier to give up - both men and women do it all the time. But I'd like to help them not do that, and I have to reach inside to where they doubt, and show them that it doesn't have to be that way.
[1] I *like* women, don't get me wrong; I just think differently from a lot of them, so it's easier for me to admit what we do to each other while still pretending to be sweetness and light. It's so frustrating that they can't be honest about their motivations.